Discrimination, mental health and values
By Steven R. Lawyer
The discussion of Pocatello’s consideration of a city ordinance that would add sexual minority status to the list of groups (such as ethnicity and religion) that cannot be discriminated against in the context of housing and employment has generated two fundamental positions. On the one hand, there are those who argue that such an ordinance adds a needed layer of protection to those in our community who are vulnerable to discrimination. On the other hand, there are those who argue that city ordinances that ban discrimination against sexual minorities are wasteful and unnecessary.
Folks in the latter camp make various points, such as the paradoxical perspective that promoting such anti-discrimination ordinances actually show how INTOLERANT a city is. (By extension, then, I suppose we should remove stop signs and speed limit signs, since all they do is highlight how bad Pocatellans drive!) One writer argues that work-related discrimination against sexual minorities probably doesn’t happen very often because employers “will hire just about anyone who will work hard…” but when it does, those few individuals who discriminate will just “get to live with their sorry selves.” What a slap in the face to those who have experienced discrimination in their lives! In a similar vein, some argue that an ordinance protecting sexual minorities is as silly as one protecting “redheads,” making it clear that many believe that there is no problem and such an ordinance is completely unnecessary. These positions can be summarized as follows: “As a heterosexual, I can’t say that I’ve ever experienced discrimination due to my sexuality, therefore discrimination due to one’s sexuality must not be a problem.”
However, discrimination against sexual minorities in our country, state, and city is very real and very prevalent and it has significant consequences. Since 1974, the American Psychological Association has opposed discrimination of any kind against sexual minorities, noting that homosexuality is not in any way a disorder. Since then, numerous research studies have made it clear that one’s sexuality is no more a choice than is one’s sex or race. Regardless, in 2011, the FBI listed hate crimes due to sexual orientation bias as the second most common form of hate crime (behind racial bias). But being a victim of a hate crime is not the only source of stress among sexual minorities. Pervasive social stigmatization across nearly every aspect of their lives creates an enormous amount of stress that most of us can scarcely appreciate. As a clinical psychologist, I have seen the mental health consequences of the very real discrimination that sexual minorities face and living day-to-day with the worry that their lives may be torn asunder if their sexuality is revealed to a hostile world, if they will lose their jobs, if they will be targeted publicly, or if their housing situation is threatened.
These anecdotes are supported by research as well. Compared with heterosexuals, sexual minorities suffer from higher rates of mental health disorders, such as substance use disorders, anxiety, depression, and suicide. These issues are not due to sexuality, but to the social stigma that leads to alienation and a lack of integration with the community. Such stress stems not only from chronic or acute discrimination events, but also to heightened expectations and worry about when the next instance of discrimination (or worse) will occur. Living in a culture where you are treated as a second-class citizen can also lead one to come to believe that one IS a second-class citizen. Other research makes it clear that the mere necessity of having to hide one’s sexual orientation from the world around you generates stress that leads to negative psychological (such as elevated stress and anxiety) and physical (such as medical illness) outcomes. Discrimination due to sexual orientation is real and it is common. In fact, this discrimination and resulting stress is very similar to that experienced by other minority groups, such as racial minorities. It has also caused harm to our fellow Pocatellans, Idahoans, and Americans that should not be tolerated in our society.
Most objections to anti-discrimination policies have little to do with philosophical concerns about governmental overreach. These positions are guided by a profound personal discomfort with sexual minorities and a desire to maintain a social and legal system that stigmatizes and marginalizes them. We have seen this before—recall how women and racial minorities were legally marginalized in the not-so-distant past. They fear that such an ordinance might provide a level of social and legal legitimacy to a group of people that they prefer stay in the shadows of social relevancy.
But the legitimacy of a minority group has nothing to do with our personal discomfort with them. It is tied to our society’s values—conservative and progressive—that support an individual’s right to pursue happiness and the American dream without artificial constraints. A city ordinance banning discrimination doesn’t show how intolerant we are as a community; it is a public display of our values of equality and aspirations in the face our very human tendency to treat those who are not like us differently. We create laws and ordinances in an effort to nudge our behaviors to be in line with the values that we hold dear as a society, in spite of individual personal discomforts. No anti-discrimination ordinance will completely eliminate discrimination, nor impair an employer’s ability to effectively manage a workforce. What it does do is allow our small community to stand together and take a stand against hurtful and un-American discrimination against fellow Pocatellans that brings harm to them and reflects poorly on the rest of us.
Like it or not, the world is changing. As our society continues toward greater acceptance of sexual minorities, we will look back on these debates and discussions with the same perspective we do now regarding civil rights fights of women and racial minorities. Regardless of one’s personal feelings, how can we allow unnecessary harm to befall our fellow citizens while just looking away and pretending nothing is wrong? That might be part of our humanity, but it certainly is not part of our community values. I hope that Pocatellans will urge our City Council to join Boise, Sandpoint, and Ketchum by passing the ordinance banning housing and workplace discrimination against sexual minorities.
Steven R. Lawyer, PhD, is a licensed clinical psychologist and an associate professor in the Idaho State University Department of Psychology.
“I hope that Pocatellans will urge our City Council to join Boise, Sandpoint, and Ketchum by passing the ordinance banning housing and workplace discrimination against sexual minorities.” Steven R. Lawyer
Me too. That is if they’re able to slip it in between the 4th and the 24th of July.
I’m so glad Pocatellans are considering this very important ordinance. It’s long overdue. Treating people as equal is foundational to creating a community of acceptance and consistent with the principles of the US constitution.
Don’t try any negative posts on this one, they just get deleted.
So, can we send some of these people to live & work with you two? Might just change your mind and quickly.
Far as I’m aware, nobody has ever asked, or discussed, whether such discrimination exists in Pocatello?
I think we need an ordinance prohibiting discrimination against old, broken-down, over- the-hill pheasant hunters.
My questions are not is there a need for Pocatello to establish this ordinance but how will complaints be investigated and the ordiance enforced?
Under current State law, if a person believes they have been the victim of discrimination or harassment they may file a complaint with the Idaho Human Rights Commission. If Pocatello passes this ordinance, who is the receiving party for complaints? What background and/or experience in investigating such complaint will they have? Will this ordinance require the creation of a new position and the hiring of an investigator or will the responsibility go to a current employee?
How will the ordinance be enforced? Meaning will the City be able to fine an offender? Will a victim be allowed to sue for damages?
Will complaints become part of the Public Record so people will know who offenders are? And will this mean that victim’s names are are also public record?
While there has been, is and will be discussion about the need for this ordinance, there also needs to be discussion about how complaints will be made, investigated and penalties levied.
Chuck, I’m not sure how it will be enforced. My guess is that it will be enforced in the same manner that other acts of discrimination are enforced. I’m not sure I understand how this issue relates to whether or not the ordinance should pass. Does it relate to whether the ordinance “has teeth” to it? In other words, can we trust that there is a process or is it in name only? I agree that it needs to have some teeth.
Disgusting Reader, some of “these people” do work with me. They have been welcome guests in my home. They are no different than anyone else. Your sentiment reminds me of remarks that came straight out of Mississippi during the black civil rights movement.
Stucki, re-read the article. There is discrimination. There is a scientific literature on it. And if broken-down pheasant hunters as a group are experiencing discrimination, then of course we should protect them.
Dr: your post wasn’t deleted b/c it was negative. The article was changed to a kinder-gentler version. Your unenlightened comments will no doubt continue unabated.
CR Stucki:If old, broken-down, over- the-hill pheasant hunters were systematically discriminated against by our society for no good reason, then I would be happy to add them. But, like redheads, they are not. Discrimination like this happens everywhere; Pocatello, as much as I love it, is no different.
Steven Lawyer says:
February 10, 2013 at 9:35 am
“Dr: your post wasn’t deleted b/c it was negative. The article was changed to a kinder-gentler version. Your unenlightened comments will no doubt continue unabated.”
Well, at least I got one admission, posts are deleted on here. Some on here lie and prefabricate and worse over and over and never get deleted. And trust me, they aren’t kindler and gentler, not even close.
Kinder-gentler article? You mean ones that won’t end up with too many on here yelling racist, republican, mormon, that kind of kinder gentler? Don’t think you hit the middle road yet, guy.
I’m unenlightened but you’re what? unenlighteneder? That basically means you didn’t have a response or retort so you went the liberal response route and went with insult as your only backup?
Love you too, dude.
If making more and newer laws to protect these people from the citizenry at large who don’t want to be around them is helpful, then c.R. Stucki is right, we’re solving things when no problem exists except the fact that certain parts of society have some weird fetishes that no one wants to know about or see in public. And yes, they were in public down here, don’t ask. Public disgust went a long ways in getting them inside and out of view.
Most gays I am aware who claim this problem are problem children themselves and no one, least of all their families want to put up with them and their weird behavior. Know one from Pocatello and his family up there. He thinks they’ve accepted him and his lifestyle. They haven’t. Public down here doesn’t look on him too fondly either.
The gays I am most impressed are those that keep their proclivity their business and don’t foist it on the public. I know a bunch of those too.
Neighbor next door opened the blinds, turned on all the light so everyone could see what was going on where I used to live. Someone painted his windows black while he was gone one day. No, not me. He also got high on whatever he was experimenting with in the drug realm and ran through the neighborhood in less than a tuxedo, much less. Cops wouldn’t stop him unless he assaulted someone or did a criminal trespass. It was sad watching them try to keep up with him in his mania. They had better things to do. Perish the thought he was the only one that acted that way. But they’re no different than anyone else? Au Contraire, they are different. The drug abuse and mental problems are just a beginning, forget the studies that never go there. Speaking of studies, they ignore all of these things and concentrate of just that which might get things to be PC. Like polls, you get what you paid for and only that.
First openly gay legislator here in Texas has for his other ‘half’ a heroin addict who causes no end of problems where they live. He can’t afford his ‘half’s habit and so his other ‘half’ steals to support it, from neighbors for a start. Wonderful people but we have to let them live there because we’d be violating their rights? What about us being violated? Oh, we don’t count. A government that makes legal law abiding citizens criminals for saying they don’t have to put up with anti-social behavior is a government that looks like D.C. as of late. Guns and gays are more important than the economy. Nope.
Mr. c.R. Stucki and Chuck have some valid observations. Give us some answers and stats to back up your side. Only fair. Pheasant hunters and redheads didn’t do the job, for a start. I was almost ready for you to say redneck and that would have brought a whoop from me, they don’t like you know who.
No when one side has rights that no one else has or has ever had, then civil society unravels and horribly. When uncivil and worse behavior has to be tolerated then things will get ugly, not better. When a president evolves, it’s definitely backwards.
So, next I can’t discriminate against convicts but only the black ones? The list does get huge and fast. Drunks will now become a gender to keep up the farce? Indeed, where will it stop? it won’t until enough good people say ENOUGH
No, they’re like everyone else. Act civil and you’ll be treated civil. Act stupid and say I have to accept it because you’re sooooo special won’t cut it.
Thanks for replying. I’m not going away.
Oh, welcome back, I think I recognized your name. We’ve diced before as I recall. I still haven’t changed my mind about you.
Should I keep a copy of this comment?
Disgusted -
I’m aware from previous episodes of this sort that you’ll insist you said it intentionally, but your “lie and prefabricate” would make way more sense as “lie and prevaricate”.
Ever heard of “Mrs. Malaprop”?
Steven L. -
Allow me to say right off, I have no strong feelings about your proposal, pro or con. It sounds to me mostly like a “feel-good” thing, but hey, if it actually does make anybody feel good, I can live with it.
I would however take minor issue with your quote from the Amer. Psych. Assn., “. . . noting that homosexuality is not in any way a disorder.”
My dictionary offers three definitions for “disorder”, the third being “an abnormal physical or mental condition”.
I’m aware of the extensive desire of the ‘gay’ community to proclaim the normalcy of their condition, and I understand that it likely is NOT a mental condition, but it’s pretty hard to argue that it is not a physical condition, and equally hard to argue that it is ‘normal’, its statistical prevalence being what it is.
CR Stucki–to be a disorder, something must create dysfunction in its own right. Homosexuality causes no dysfunction itself, only the social reaction to it. Historically, a broad array of things have been called disorders, such as slaves running away from their masters (drapetomania). Homosexuality is a physical condition, but no less so than is heterosexuality or dark skin. The fact that it happens less frequently than does heterosexuality makes it relatively infrequent, not disordered. (Same with redheads and Idahoans.) It is normal in the sense that it occurs in nature. Same with redheads…but less so with Idahoans
Rasmerin, Your response is why I asked the questions in the first place. Most people don’t know how the process works and just assume that if there is a law against discrimination, there won’t be any discrimination. While the intent of a law may be good, we really need to know how it will be enforced and the penalties for violating it.
As I stated before, discrimination complaints based on current protected classes) are handled by the state. The State of Idaho will not investigate these types of discrimination complaints because they have no jurisdiction to do so. So that leads to the questions of how will it be done? If the state won’t do it, who with the City will? Will this require a new department, an investigator to be hired, what additional costs to the city? All questions that the City Council needs to address with discussion of the ordinance.
I have looked on line to see how the Boise and Sand Point ordinances address the filing of complaints as well a penalties and I can find nothing. If someone can provide a link to how the investigative and enforcement is handled, that would be great.
Curious also as to how 1st Amendment rights, specifically to religion will be handled. Will a church that teaches homosexuality is a sin and has a private school be able to not hire a teacher because they are gay or lesbian?
While many will say this is a needed ordinance, people need to understand the City could be taking on responsibilities it is not prepared for.
c.R. Stucki,
No, I meant prefabricate as most of the lies are “made up”. Thanks for noticing though. And yes the other way makes sense too.
Mr. Lawyer,
You said: Homosexuality causes no dysfunction itself, only the social reaction to it.
Dysfunction or not functioning in other terminology? Born male but functions as what? One of the things I note in lesbian pairs is one of them almost always acts male. Born male but can’t function as a male and that’s not a dsyfunction but societies reaction to your dsyfunction is the problem and the dsyfunction itself? I don’t want to read your dissertation, pass.
Explain Kevin my friend who one day told me, men don’t get pregnant and decided to “try” the homo lifestyle. Didn’t work out quite as well as he intended as he’s now HIV positive, in his twenties, looks 70 years old and definitely dysfunctional. He claims no longer to be gay but blame societies reaction? My reaction was more to the point, “talk to you in a few years” and yes we did talk. Not biological, not even close. What kind of law are you going to write to protect him from himself?
You also said: Homosexuality is a physical condition.
“There is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is genetic—and none of the research itself claims there is. Only the press and certain researchers do, when speaking in sound bites to the public.” (Jeffrey Satinover, M.D., The Journal of Human Sexuality, 1996, p.8.)
When “gay gene” researcher Hamer was asked if homosexuality was rooted solely in biology, he himself replied, “Absolutely not. From twin studies, we already know that half or more of the variability in sexual orientation is not inherited. Our studies try to pinpoint the genetic factors…not negate the psychosocial factors.” (“Gay Genes, Revisited: Doubts arise over research on the biology of homosexuality,” Scientific American, November 1995, P. 26.)
Psychosocial? Not sure I want to go there. Fancy word for Confusion Inc. Anything goes country.
The safest thing you could say is we don’t know what it is or for that matter what it isn’t.
Now the people I really feel for are the hermaphrodites (sp?). Grew up knowing one and we let ‘them’ decide what ‘they’ wanted to be. Girls however didn’t like the choice ‘they’ made so the guys took care of the individual even though it dressed as a female and wanted to be one. Yes, ‘they’ came across as a tom boy at best. Function was what you get out of them at the time, not always the same thing.
So as much as you would like paint these individuals as “the new normal”, they just aren’t and some of their ‘behavior’ is definitely anti-social and making a law saying people have to ignore it won’t make it any better but will definitely increase the animosity factor by a large amount. I suspect a lot of the ‘feel good’ PC will long term cause more problems than they will ever address or solve.
One of them took an assault rifle to the university apparently with the idea of committing suicide by cop but took his own life instead. Scuttlebutt from talking to neighbors says he had gay thoughts and couldn’t accept them in himself and so took a common route out, the other way being drugs. Write a law to protect him from himself. But not dysfunctional, right?
I think these laws will cause more problems than they’ll ever address. Counseling individuals to not do things that will get them in trouble socially seems more helpful. Probably fail on in your face individuals which probably are the ones who would be abusing the process anyway.
Steven L. -
But doesn’t the fact that it fails to result in procreation constitute “dysfunction”?
If the natural hunger for the consumption of nutritional matter (i.e., normal eating) were to become somehow ‘mis-wired’ within the human brain resulting in certain individuals having the urge to stuff food into their ears rather than their mouths, the result would constitute the contravention of the biological purpose of the process, with negative consequences for the afflicted person.
Would that not constitute “dysfunction”?
Disgusted -
In that event plain ‘fabricated’ would make way more sense than “prefabricated”.
c.R. Stucki,
(pre) was put on the front to make it sound cheap on their side. Method to my ‘madness’.
CR Stucki,
I understand your point, here, but still not an indication of homosexuality as a “disease” in the context of a diagnosis per the APA. Your assertion assumes that the only purpose we serve in the context of society is procreation, which it is not by a long shot. Many heterosexual couples either choose not to–or can’t–have children. Yet, they enjoy all the rights that us procreating heterosexuals enjoy.
Steven L. -
Agreed wholeheartedly, no “disease” involved. More like a birth anomaly. (I once made the mistake of characterizing it as a “birth defect” – pretty much the same thing, but you can imagine how that was received – the semantics are all-important in the age of PC.)
Mr. Lawyer,
Liked your reply to c.R. Stucki.
However, Obama just wrote an Executive Order to the CDC to study “violence” as a disease. Wait 5 minutes maybe he’ll evolve and declare a bunch of other things diseases and the definition will change and we’ll have to come back on here and re-argue the subject, because he has to be right 100% of the time.
I have no clue as to what to ascribe it to, my mind doesn’t work the way theirs do. That’s obvious. In my world it’s a dysfunctional way to do it, which means I get called crude names because they don’t like that definition.
c.R. Stucki is right, semantics are all-important in the age of PC and solve nothing.
Perhaps some here might like to read another article that was in the ISJ regarding the proposed new non discrimination laws. I read it and quite agree with Mr. Larson. I also noticed that none of the folks here commented on it, apart from Disgusted Reader. Anyone care to comment, especially Mr. Lawyer?
http://www.pocatelloshops.com/new_blogs/politics/?p=10104
D.R. -
You reply about being called names when you stray form the P.C. choice of semantics is great. It brought to mine a video on YouTube that you might like. Here is a man who speaks truth and says that P.C. is very bad. http://www.pocatelloshops.com/new_blogs/politics/?p=10104
God bless you and thank you for posting your opinion.
Dang! I posted the wrong site! Here is the correct one….. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFb6NU1giRA
Patriot,
Excellent URL. Thanks. He has a unique sense of humor. He got me laughing. Carson for president. I only post my opinion and I have a bunch. Have a good day.
D.R. I’m glad you liked it. I am wondering if Lawyer will respond to the article by Neal Larson. It is my belief that this proposed law is as Mr. Larson said, just another “me too” by the City Council.
Did you know that last year there was a “Pocatello Pride” event (which was actually a homosexual pride event) that was the most disgusting and outrageous display of filthy behavior that has ever been in Pocatello? One of the LGBTQ groups had on display a 6′ rubber dildo they were using as a ring toss game! Since this had been advertised as a family friendly event, there were lots of children there! When photos of this event were shown to the Police Chief, he said that had he known what was going on, he would have closed it down and arrested many participants. When the Mayor and City Council were made aware of the public displays at the event and saw photos, they were disgusted as well.
I wonder if they think this will get better with the new law or will we have more of this?
Here is the Boise ordinance:
http://www.cityofboise.org/city_clerk/111312/o-36-12.pdf
Here is the Ketchum ordinance:
http://www.sterlingcodifiers.com/codebook/index.php?book_id=344
Here is the Sandpoint ordinance:
http://www.sterlingcodifiers.com/codebook/index.php?book_id=437
Each city has the ability to chose the way the ordinance is enforced.
“Why is it so important that we educate our people? Because we don’t want to go down the pathway as so many pinnacle nations that have preceded us. I think particularly about ancient Rome. Very powerful. Nobody could even challenge them militarily, but what happened to them? They destroyed themselves from within. Moral decay, fiscal irresponsibility. They destroyed themselves. If you don’t think that can happen to America, you get out your books and you start reading, but you know, we can fix it.
Why can we fix it because we’re smart. We need doctors, we needs scientists, engineers. We need all those people involved in government, not just lawyers.”
Public displays of homosexual behavior bring nothing but disgust to the public. Nothing positive is involved. I reserve the right to discriminate and say I don’t have to be publicly exposed to it which is what these people want, that’s the route they went down here until a bunch of people said enough. So, if push comes to shove and we have to accept these people and their weird proclivities don’t expect people to just suddenly become blind. I don’t have to go along just because they can’t control themselves. There are a lot of things that aren’t socially acceptable and you can make all the laws you want about them but they’re still disgusting.
DR: It is interesting that you note that homosexual behavior is publicly disgusting on Fat Tuesday. I would venture to guess that if you were in New Orleans this evening, you would see plenty of raucous behavior, some of it disgusting, committed by an excited and wild Mardi Gras crowd, most of them straight and unable to control themselves.
Rufous,
Been to New Orleans numerous times over the years, never ever stopped to take in the flavor of anything going on in that place. How many years after Katrina and they’re still whining about what? No, I dropped off the broken computer parts to be returned and re-supplied with new parts and got the hell out of the rat hole. 9th ward was particular bad.
Lots of things are disgusting and police take most people praciticing them down but if you’re “gender confused” we have to ignore you, because….????
Come down here and I’ll dump you on 6th street in Austin about 2-3am on a weekend and refuse to come pick you up. Yup, those people and a bunch of stupid gangs thrown in. Wonderful people you would never want to know. A guy recently told one of them to “back off” and when he didn’t punched him out. Yup, he got arrested for anti-gay hate crime. Sometimes society is beyond stupid.
Pass the law or ordinance and watch how the next thing on the docket is ‘hate crimes’ against you know who?
When you’re drunk it doesn’t matter whether you’re straight or crooked, you do dumb things. There are laws for things like that. These laws are saying you have to ignore those things in these people. They’re ‘special’.
D.R. – Thank you for your firm opinions. Vulgar activity is vulgar no matter who engages in it. I would not want to see strip shows on the public streets of Pocatello and that vulgar display that the homosexuals put on at the Old Town Pavilion was nothing but that kind of filth. Men swapping spit, groping, and fondling each other while children and families were there. And women swapping spit, groping and fondling each other while the children watched. Drag queens, transvestites, transsexuals, all prancing and preening and kissing each other.
It IS a repeat of the degradation of Rome.
When is it a hate crime to expect disgusting behavior be kept out of the public’s view.
Frankly, I think we should ban discrimination against all bipedal hominids, and call it good.
Like your idea bigfoot. Execution would be a doozie though.
Patriot, I actually wrote my article as a response to Larson’s piece (notice the quotes).
To be honest, I too feel that the displays you highlighted were in poor taste. But let me put things into context a bit. One reason why such displays happen is that they represent a rebellion against society’s tendency to repress others’ sexuality. It really is no different than the outward and gratuitous display of firearms that some use as a response to any hint of support for gun control initiatives.
Regarding “vulgar is vulgar”–what is vulgar depends on the individual an the culture. Certainly any public display of affection has been considered vulgar in our culture in the past. Similarly, I find vulgarity everywhere, though you might disagree with my definition.
It’s interesting to me that conservatives are the first to argue against the rise of “political correctness” in our culture and argue that society is not supposed to protect us from individual discomfort. Yet, they simultaneously (and with no hint of irony) argue that we must do all we can to shield THEM against anything that makes them uncomfortable.
Mr. Lawyer,
Let’s see you’re born a male but don’t know or want to act as a male and therefore you act like what? And that’s sexuality? No, that’s anything but. It’s get off anyway you can and for varying reasons of which you can only find one sex to do it with? It’s not love, not even close. Hell, get yourself off, then you don’t go down that path that can only get worse. But if you can find another human who does the same as you, that makes it OK? No, just two of you doing the same thing.
Context? No, more like “IN YOUR FACE” and that never goes over well, irregardless of the subject. A float celebrating pioneers raises the collective spittle for a typical example. That’s someones discomfort? Wow!, miracle they make it out the front door every day.
No when every thing and anything is acceptable and has to be tolerated we’ve lost our way for ever being considered civilized. When those who vote for a living out number those who work for a living, same thing. When sex is anything goes, then it’s lost it’s way too. For both sides.
CHL means just what it says, CONCEALED. No outward anything. It’s not meant to intimidate anyone except a perp who thinks he can get away with something because… Argue that.
Vulgar is vulgar, if you have to get 100% of all cultures definition you’ll never get it.
I’m sure you find vulgarity everywhere, it soothes your conscience quite often given the way you write on here. Personal philosophy is just that personal, enjoy the consequences of yours.
Discomfort is I have to accept being trashed for good behavior but others ‘bad social’ behavior has to be accepted, no choice? That kind of discomfort, two standards and I have no choice as to which one goes? Make all the laws you want, people will start ignoring them in mass and quickly. After all, the president gets to pick and choose which ones he wants to enforce or ignore. Bad habit of his. Now, tell he I hate his parentage in reply. I hate what he’s doing to this country, it’s ceased to be good.
Oh, he took credit for cars getting 40mpg. Seems that won’t come until about 2017, if then and requires about 55mpg vehicle to support it. Every seen a 55mpg vehicle, try a Kawasaki Ninja 300 for a typical example? Got lots of car companies advertising 40mpg cars here, trouble is seldom do they get 40mpg in real life. Your new SUV in 2017 might have two wheels if you’re lucky. Now some might consider that vulgar.
I’m curious to know why there are some on here who think it’s acceptable for people – any people, to publicly flaunt sex. I guess I was just raised differently, but I was taught that sex was a private thing between two consenting adults (in my day, a man and a woman). A take on the “Vegas” thing – “What happens in the bedroom, stays in the bedroom”.
I have no problem with gays. In fact, I have a couple of good friends who are gay, and have been together for several years now. They both have jobs, make a good living, own their own home, and live in a nice neighborhood. Their neighbors know them, know who and what they are, and still invite them to neighborhood get-togethers. What makes them stand out a little is the fact that they went to another state a few years ago and got married. What they do not do is flaunt their lifestyle to the masses. They just go on with their lives, and have very little use for other gays who think they need to blatantly make out in public to try and force people to accept them. They don’t join in ‘gay’ parades, ‘gay’ protests, and other so-called ‘gay’ functions. The way they see it, is they just try and be good Americans, and treat people as they would like to be treated.
Gays who go out of their way to try and push their lifestyle on others are the ones that turn folks off, and therefore turn folks against the lifestyle.
“I actually began to enjoy reading those books because we were very poor, but between the covers of those books I could go anywhere, I could be anybody, i could do anything. I began to read about people of great accomplishment, and as I read those stories, I began to see a connecting thread. I began to see that the person who has the most to do with you and what happens to you in life is you. You make decisions. You decide how much energy you want to put behind that decision. And I came to understand that I had control of my own destiny. And at that point I didn’t hate poverty anymore, because I knew it was only temporary. I knew I could change that. it was incredibly liberating for me, made all the difference.”
Wish I had said the above, but a gentleman named Benjamin Carson did. Sexuality was way down the list of important things in life, way down. And the right kind was more important than anything else. You need to take the consequences that come with your decisions, make bad one, then get used to the bad following.
Traveler, I totally understand your point. The issue is that the vast majority of sexual minorities do NOT flaunt their sexuality in front of others. We just tend to pay attention to the ones who do. At any rate, why not hold others–such as churches–to the same standard?
Some sexual minorities might exhibit their sexuality in ways that make some uncomfortable, but I’ve never had one try to “convert” me in any way. However, I’ve had countless religious folks come to my home–uninvited–blatantly flaunting their lifestyle and working diligently to get me to convert.
I think we should consider whether our homes are made of glass before we cast stones at others.
Steven Lawyer,
We did down here. Name of Warren Jeffs, convicted pedophile. But these other people have rights and privileges no one else has. If you’re a certain age what came before that age is criminal but now it’s legal? Philosophy gone mad.
It’s hard to ignore the idiot that leaves his blinds open and lights on for all to see and when that fails, goes outside dressed in a bow tie and nothing else and high on drugs. That standard? The new normal?
I’ve had countless religious folks come to my home too, mainly Jehovah Witnesses, I invite them in make sure they have food and water but you consider them as uninvited. Bet it’s only one group. Pay attention, the way to get them to go away is tell them, No Thank You. But that’s too hard, you need to make everyone else’s world glass and yours isn’t? Beware of wolfs in sheep’s clothing living in your home. Oh, don’t answer the door for another way of discouraging them. They’ll get the message until a new set comes along to annoy you. Perish the thought that anything I believe in you would consider be converted to. Ten commandments are ten suggestions in your world.
I don’t cast stones, much, I take a look at someones behavior and say, that’s not for me, period. And when they try to shove it down my throat because they’re ‘special’ you know where that one gets deposited. I have every right to decide what is right and wrong and act accordingly. It’s not against the law to be on the side that doesn’t do dumb things. Oh, wait, it soon will be. When all the law abiding citizens are in jail and the others aren’t, then what?
Backed down a sociopath years ago. He went on to kill and dismember two LDS missionaries who accepted a dinner invitation to his ‘stolen’ trailer. Love to have let you deal with him. He claimed a lot of dysfunctions you find so wonderful in your world. Yes, he even claimed to be one of those one time, whether he was or not I didn’t want to know. Seriously doubt he was, sociopaths can be so charming. That’s how they get their way with people.
If we decide in this society that anything goes and anything does, we’re lost to history. Rule of law is meaningless and we descend into something call anarchy and it’s a hard road out of that one.
Quick take a drink of water, that’s sooooo important today. No, the important things are being ignored, the unimportant things are more important and if you say, ‘wait a minute’ you’re now violating how many laws? Write all the laws you want, there is a consequence of making bad laws, pretty soon everyone will say they have the same right the president has and can pick and choose which to ignore or otherwise pretend doesn’t exist. What’s fair for him is fair for everyone.
So, enough rocks your way, yet?
Steven Lawyer:
One of my most favorite sayings to ever come out is, “What part of NO don’t you understand”? Like you, I have had religious folks come to my door. But mostly the ones who pass out their brochure called ‘The Watchtower’, and some others I don’t know who they are. I’ve only had Mormons come one time, and one of them was a relative. (To that one, I read the riot-act, as he knew better). However, when they come to my door, I tell them I am not interested, and to not come back. In other words, “just say no”! Most of them will comply, and not come back. You talk as if they come everyday or so. I find that very hard to believe.
There is nothing so different about you as with others. NOBODY likes anything crammed down their throat. Yes, some religions, and even “Fuller Brush Salesmen” like to knock on peoples doors. Just say NO!
I wish some of you posters could get it through your heads; the L.D.S. Church is not trying to move the Pioneer Day Celebration to the 4th of July. The Mayor of Pocatello asked them if they would like to participate in the parade. NOT take it over. He also asked several other organizations (and churches I understand) if they would like to participate. Why is nobody raising hell about that? Maybe he could ask one of the Funeral Homes to participate, and they could make a float with a little miniature coffin, some flowers, and a few mourners on it. Would that be acceptable? There are huge differences between a “pioneer day” celebration, an “Independence Day” celebration, and a “religious celebration”.
Get a clue people!
Traveler,
True, I fear it falls on ears long since deaf.
This is why we need a city ordinance:
http://www.idahostatejournal.com/news/local/article_6565373e-7818-11e2-92ef-001a4bcf887a.html
Do you think for one minute, “those people” had it coming because they weren’t holding hands indoors like good closeted homosexuals should do? Did they deserve to be beaten to a pulp simply because they cared to love someone that you don’t think that they should, then you are an absolutely abhorrent, disgusting lifeform. You are not even human, for you have no charity. You are filth.
Think about whether or not you would like it if someone thought your wife ugly and beat the hell out of you for it.
There have been at least 3 beatings that were directed towards gay people in the last year. You know how many there were from where i moved from (a bigger town than here) in the same time span? 0. zilch. that’s right. Is that acceptable? is that a civil society? I am not a “left-wing hippy liberal” and yet, still I find this more morally disgusting than any homosexual act involving consenting adults could ever be.
These are the things that people have to deal with when they decide to follow what they feel is right for them. Whether being gay is genetic or environmental is irrelevant. America is about individual freedom and to be able to “pursue happiness.” We have freedom of religion and that is a choice. There is no “christian” muslim” or “buddhist” gene.
What are you so afraid of? that the gays are going to be trying to make out with you? Trust me, they aren’t. Do you think that someone is going to “turn your kid gay?” If you believe that homosexuality is a choice, then you are simply a failure as a parent if that did happen. Do you think that gays are going to take over Pocatello and this is going to be a big gay mecca full of Liberace museums and showtunes? Don’t make me laugh. I could only hope that to be the case: If it did happen, at least we’d have better restaurants here.
Ever since time began, we have had the problem of ‘man’s inhumanity to man’. I actually think ‘intolerance’ fit’s it better. It’s got to be a fact that the only ones who know why they do it, are the ones that do it. And at times, I doubt they even know.
The problem, as I see it, is there will always be people out there who look at anyone different from them, as a threat. Don’t know why, but it just seems that way. Ancient Romans, and others slaughtered Christians, because they were ‘different’; Whites slaughtered Blacks (and other ‘dark’ races), because they were different; People slaughtered the Irish, for whatever reason. Probably because they grew a lot of potatoes. (Who knows). Some Muslims, even to this day, slaughter Christians because they are different. School kids even go after some that are smaller, or even disabled, or mentally challenged, because they are different (and I’m sure they learn that from others in their home). Members of some churches (mainly, it seems, the L.D.S. Church) is being accused of all kinds of crap, simply because they exist. Now, since gays have been coming ‘out’ more these days, there are those who beat them up, for no reason other than the fact that they are different.
What is really the worst thing about a lot of this, is the people that are commiting these crimes (and they are crimes), are the same ones that are screaming about the intolerance we are all suffering. So we are right back to the time-worn phrase: “man’s inhumanity to man”. What ever happened to the better known phrase (from America): “Live and let live”?
The above post says a lot. Another phrase I have always liked that I first heard as part of my upbringing (don’t know where it originated from): “Clean up your own back yard before you start on others”! Or – another way of phrasing that one: “Put your own house in order first”.
So if we want ‘tolerance’ in America, it begins with “WE, THE PEOPLE”!!!