Guilty until proven innocent
By Rex Rammell
November 30th was a great day, at least until I met a game warden on the trail. I had finally harvested a nice fat cow elk on the last day of the hunt. I punched my tag and was headed home. The officer stopped me and asked for my license and tag. I respectfully gave them to him. He said “your tag is not valid for this area.” I explained to him when I bought the tag at Sportsman’s Warehouse they clarified I could hunt in any open zone in Idaho. He informed me that was incorrect. I asked him to show me the regulation. He could not, but insisted the tag was invalid. I said “fine, give me a citation; I will fight it in court.”
Then he said I couldn’t keep the elk. I said “but I haven’t been proven guilty.” He didn’t care. He said “I have to take your elk.” I asked him why. He said it was evidence. I replied “can’t you take a picture or do you intend to mark her as an exhibit and display her in the courthouse?”
He said “I’m taking your elk.” I said “you better get your gun out, because you’re going to have to shoot me if you want this elk.” I then explained to him, if he wanted the elk he would need a warrant. He backed off and said he would follow me out, which he did without giving me a citation.
Meanwhile, he called ahead and had two state policemen, two deputy sheriffs, and another game warden waiting for me in Idaho Falls. After arguing for an hour whether the elk was contraband and whether they had the right to confiscate the elk without a warrant or not, I finally gave in and let them take her, still without a citation.
However, that wasn’t good enough for them, they had to release a press statement all over Idaho implying Rex Rammell had been caught poaching an elk and had threatened an officer.
Question: If I get shot, who threatened who?
The rules are ambiguous and I am not the only hunter confused by them and misinformed by Sportsman’s Warehouse. But what really angers me is their “guilty until proven innocent” attitude. I had an “A” tag that was required to hunt in Tex Creek. My greatest violation could only be hunting in the wrong zone. Can that possibly be grounds for confiscation of my elk? Shouldn’t I have the right to argue my case before being found guilty by a game warden on the trail? What is it with these Nazis? Honest mistakes are treated as harshly as blatant violations. And wouldn’t a suitable fine be sufficient if I actually did break the law by mistake? Why do they need to take my elk?
I think it is time to turn management of the PEOPLE’S fish and game back to local control by fishermen and hunters at the county level. After all, they actually know what is going on with the fish and game and would like them to be plentiful. To that end I will continue to fight.
Rex Rammell is an Idaho Falls resident and a former Republican candidate for governor.
You thought you were a viable candidate for govenor you can’t read hunting regs? Plead guilty, beg for leniency.
It seems that Rammell has forgotten one of the number one rules of a productive and sustainable population. There has to be rules and ignorance of those rules is not a defense. We all assume that Rammell can read, yet he failed to do the one thing his parents and teachers thought to be important besides learning how to speak. Lets look at a couple of things, first the tag. If he would have read his tag it states what units it is valid for not just the zone, and when the unit closes. That’s the reading part. Second these are not new rules that were put in place after he left his house they have been in place for well over 10 years. Sounds to me that Rammell knowingly and willing poached this animal.
Fish and game have rules in place to that are strict to try and prevent poachers from taking game animals that belong to all Idaho citizens, whether they are hunters or not. Fish and game should have confiscated everything in Mr. Rammells possession as they are allowed by law. This could have been his gun, snow machine, truck, and ELK. If a robber is caught in the act should he be allowed to keep the money, or a rapist keep his victim until he goes to court. Mr. Rammell you were wrong and got caught, I hope they have a go to jail card for you. You are not protesting the law by breaking it you are committing a crime that takes from all of us. You should have titled the column guilty or just not that smart.
jack inhoff,
Not wishing to take sides but sometime you should read the rules down here for hunting. They’re worse.
Here, read your own. http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/hunt/rules/bg/ Google earth says the area is between Idaho Falls and Irwin which probably means the officer gets to decide what that covers. Not a good way to do it. What few maps are general in nature and lack. Since I don’t have a location to work from a best general guess has the area divided in 2 areas with ‘maybe’ roads defining them? Maps leave much to be desired and at $27.35 a tad expensive as you have to get multiples to cover where you might go. Per the PDF the area is Tex Creek 66,69 and is ‘color coded’ white (unknown what that means, not obvious) and is described on page 39. Guess what? The page is 90 degrees sideways (landscape vs portrait) and runs a 151% rate means not only do you have to read it sideways but it fills more than one page. Oh, joy. Also note 1 page 46 which appears to be on another PDF as this only goes to page 40. I went to the other PDF and found note 1, it contains nothing about area 66 only a reference to 63X which appears to be a different designation as it never states what the x means. Finally found 66 on page 51 and it only says, “all of areas 66,69″. Since 63X references area 63X, which states only Camas is closed, what are you supposed to deduce from these pages? It also says Elk hunting is in 29 zones but then never says which zones they are. I count the white zones, there are 31 if you ignore two with an ‘a’ designation. Is this the elk zones? If so Mr. Rammel appears to be in one per his description. Color coding on map does not correspond to color coding on regulation pages. Not helpful. Does this mean when you come across an elk you have to ask him whether he’s on page XX of the regulations and whether or not you can shoot him? Probably and no, you won’t get an answer.
How anyone can go hunting in Idaho is beyond me.
I make no comment as to whether or not he was a viable candidate. If as the article avers he did not receive a citation then the officer stole his elk at a minimum. Need more information which I suspect I won’t get. No, I’ll get the spin meisters version of things I never asked about.
My short foray into the regulations does indicate they are confusing at best and in needs of local control at best. So viable candidate or not, he does seem to have a point or can someone point me in favor of the officer? Not enough information to make a disposition one way or the other. Lack of a citation does seem to be a problem.
If Sportsmens Warehouse puts out wrong info, they appear confused by the same regulations but in that respect anyone that then goes with their interpretation is probably in trouble as this example illustrates. They aren’t the law. Read the regs even after they tell you something to see if it’s true or pay the consequences. Also the brochure is said to be 96 pages long. Good luck. Get the printed version the on line one is confusing and worthless.
Oh, Mr. Rammel, Nazi is a mis-used word that gets way too much play time. It also garbaged your reply. You may have had a point but it got lost in the verbige at that point.
No wonder you guys have too many wolves. Now if you could convince them to frequent highways driven by drunk drivers you might solve that one.
What a mess. Junk the brochure, it’s more confusing than anything. Hire some one who can write English and start over. Oh, and remind me never to hunt in Idaho again. The only place I could legally take an elk is the Silver Dollar saloon in Blackfoot on alternate tuesdays after the full moon and I don’t imbibe. Hell, my computer manuals are a mess but at least I can find things in them.
Rex,
Instead of whinning on a public forum, you should be getting your case ready for court and listening to, and following your attorney,s counsel.
Besides, I get the impression the public is tired of hearing about your problems.
Smokey,
Ditto.
With lines like “you better get your gun out, because you’re going to have to shoot me if you want this elk,” I’m worried. This dude was at one time considered a viable candidate for Governor.
Even if the man is found innocent, this guy seems wreckless at best.
DR;
Just buy your meat in a Texas grocery. That will make most Idahoans very happy indeed.
Hear! Hear! What hails from Texas…should stay in Texas!!! One of the best days for Idaho happened when Disgusting Reader pulled up his tent stakes and hit the road!!!
Smokey:
I agree with your post. And everyone simply gives this narcisist what he craves, attention and a soapbox.
[…] Guilty until proven innocent. By Rex Rammell. Op ed in the Idaho State Journal […]
Rex,
Sorry to say, you are responsible for knowing where it is legal and not legal to hunt, I can’t tell you it is legal in downtown Boise, but if you don’t confirm it and kill something in downtown Boise your going to be charged and the evidence is going to be confiscated. Your lucky they didn’t take your gun and truck as they do in many states when a violation is alleged…man up, go to trial and take what ever happens.
Oh, wow!
Link to another blog of comments above. And that solves what? More dissing on Rex Rammell who apparently needs it.
Still don’t know whether the dude is guilty or not. No citation. Confusing regulations that some are sure aren’t. Do Idahoans have to take a lawyer with them when they go hunting? I’ll lay odds that won’t solve anything, but is expensive. Can anyone one here explain anything to me in logical sense or is this blog going down the insult road as usual?
So, I’m the only guy that went to the regulations based on a paucity of information and tried to figure out what was what and came away wondering if anyone could figure them out. You guys really know how to treat messengers with bad news don’t you? Thus far he hasn’t won your hearts but you haven’t given much evidence he’s guilty of anything more than bad PR and all that entails. You still believe in capitol punishment it would appear. Yes, I spelled it right.
I recommend all Idaho hunters stay home this year. This is one of those things that getting up in the morning and yawning puts you in violation of 20 federal statutes you’re never heard of or read. But Obama is busy flying Air Force One, so you don’t have to worry. Now about those trees on the bank of the Portneuf, get rid of them of Obama will flying by and do it for you. It’s called the White House in the air down here. Wonderful PR for the Republicans, we asked him to come back again adn again.
So at this point, Rex Rammell is not well liked and has a low PR score. Yup, now what citation do you issue for that? You seem to take political prisoners up in Idaho. Anybody you don’t like is guilty. Of what isn’t clear but guilty.
Buncha BS, and you stayed behind to lend your wonderful personality to the state? OH, joy.
Thayne,
Got a freezer full of beef, grown locally by a rancher who guarantees, no corn, no hormones, nothing but grass and such. Organic, it’s called. I intend to keep him in business. The stuff in the store here is crap. If I want to I can get a license and tag and open my back door and take one from the herds that range the neighborhood. I’ve cleared the underbrush and the grass that grows is good feed for them. Rather small creatures after what I was used to up in Idaho though. Probably about 2-3 dozen here and we keep their numbers down to where they don’t end up starving because of inadequate feed. That satisfy you?
No feed lot stuff in the cooler for me. Oh, we also have people who will grow our vegetables for us too. Good people.
Still waiting for the reason he’s guilty of anything more than being a motor mouth which apparently is illegal in Idaho. Buncha BS, I’d be careful if I were you.
DR:
I’m just shaking your cage to see what happens. No harm intended & certainly nothing serious.
Oh….. Disgusting got his feelers hurt and now he wants to tell us Idaho folk to be careful… ooohhh…
The only thing I have to be careful of is reading too many long incessant droning, whining, pat yourself on the back every chance you get, make my eyes bleed, uneducated rantings coming from a certain Texan who wants everyone to believe that he has “been there, done that” and is the self proclaimed expert on anything they could possibly dream of conversing about…
Get a clue Disgusting… if there really were motor mouth police, you’d already be in prison for life… that’s a gaurandamntee!
nd they will dog you till they get it.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Now where have I heard that before? As for the regs they are pretty easy to understand. All the boundries are detailed for each unit and elk zone’s are made up of several units.
All it takes is a good topo map and a minumum of reading comprehension. Anyone can do it.
Something happened on that one. Got me stumped.
But it reads like a ticket from an Idaho copper.
Only thing nastier than an Idaho copper is a Nevada copper.
Good luck. It is all about the fine. They need the money.
Thayne,
I know that, however Buncha BS is clueless. Could you help him?
Looking for someone to grow my vegetables for me right now, the last guy gave up when we found he was purchasing them from the wholesaler locally. Tad hard to grow them here as there isn’t much soil and the local animals love what we grow for them. Considering building a greenhouse if I can.
Thanks.
BBS,
I grew up in Idaho with people who constantly tried to one up me by telling me to shut up because they weren’t intelligent enough to respond to what I knew. It got old. You’re the prime example of them. No facts, no evidence but plenty of insults that are yours and yours alone. More than happy to make life miserable for you. Is that the best you can do? Smokey knows how it works, you don’t. And yes, been there, done a hell of a lot more than you display evidence of. Now, if I had stayed in Idaho, I wouldn’t have nearly the same possibility of talking about a lot of things.
Can’t read the same on-line regulations and tell me whether there is a problem or not? Thought so. So Mr. Rammell gets the attention he does or does not deserve from you.
Rex Rammell must be thankful for people like you otherwise he’d have to answer to things and you don’t provide questions, do you? Rex Rammell, the Idaho version of Sarah Palin? Tell you what, trade you straight across for Lloyd Doggett. Rex Rammell would find himself ignored down here. Hell, we went after the governor himself here when he was rude to a lady DPS trooper. Now that’s accountability. Yes, his driver was speeding and we let him know governor don’t have a special dispensation in that area. Rex Rammell won’t go down with insults, just like Palin won’t.
So, where’s the citation? Where exactly was he? What page do you find the information in the regulations? Answer the questions, that is IF you can. Thus far he’s skating with the PC mob howling in pursuit.
As I started out, “Not wishing to take sides….” but you totally missed that.
http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/hunt/elk/09zoneHarvest.pdf
here is a color picture for those with sub-standard reading comprehension.
Notice the Tex Creek zone in the eastren side of the state where rammel was busted and the middle fork zone where he had an expiered tag for.(that info is printed right on the tag.)
Also from the first paragraph of the elk regs;
“Elk hunting in Idaho is managed in 29 elk zones. In addition,
Fish and Game has established a 2-tag system as an effort to
offer elk hunters the most general season choices. Hunters
may select 1 zone and choose either an “A tag” or a “B tag”
in most elk zones.”
notice where it says a hunter may select”1 zone”.
All this is on-line.
So easy even a caveman could do it.
JEFF E,
Good, finally, I think, maybe, maybe not. Nobody is perfect, you’re nobody, therefore you’re perfect. Stick with me on this.
Indeed it does have 29 elk zones and 31 are listed if white is the defining color. I’m not color blind in case you need that information in your quest. Color blindness is the difficulty in recognizing red or green and rarely blue. White is not generally included in the condition. White normally is not involved in hues which the condition exacerbates. White is not the defining color on the page you listed. Good luck on noting the green hued differences. Not a good map making mistake.
You went to a different web page than I did. The page you referenced is the “success rates” for the year 2009 i.e. zoneHarvest.pdf. (read the top of the page.) Which shows Tex Creek as having both A tag and B tag hunting which would correspond to what Mr. Rammell was saying. From your reference:
Tex Creek
340 Bulls
A Tag Success 15.2%
B Tag Success 22.0%
So per your one page reference with possibly the wrong year, he was right to go hunting there. Oops! Now who’s digitally challenged?
Your use of the word “expeired” also has a problem. You’re the only one saying it and the word “expired” does not appear when you ask Find: to find it, seems you said it and misspelled it at the same time. So, when did this fact come up? The term is “not valid for this area” but given your web page there was a hunt for 2009 with both A & B Tags which says at least then, it was valid. Hate to tell you but it’s 2010 right now, which I presume is when this occured as I don’t have a date in the article, only a reference to Nov. 30th and no year. I suppose it could have been last year but at this point, don’t know. So, worst next question, where is the page for 2010? Waiting for the end of the year? Probably. So if we use your reference and your year it was valid for this area. Hmmm! I think you prove my comment that the darn thing is confusing as hell, it confused you apparently. Disabuse me. Oh, they changed colors going from one map to another, confusing wasn’t it? I won’t speculate why.
Back to caveman school, dude. Seems you may have just proven Mr. Rammell correct with your reference. Go wash your keyboard out with soap. Disconnect it first, electrons go where they can. May I recommend you stay home and not go hunting. Just a thought.
This assclown should be sentenced to 900 hours of community service in an animal shelter, and thereafter serve a 5 year term of probation supervised by John Marvel.
Cruel and unusual? Perhaps, but ain’t nothin’ too unusual for an Idaho teabagger.
Is that all ya got. pointing out a typo. elk zones in Idaho have not changed boundaries in over ten years. A minimum of research will prove that out. The use of color on a map is basic to understanding where boundaries are of whatever sort, in this case the different zones. Falls under basic map reading. Nice attempt at deflection however. what difference does what web page it comes from make, it is all from the same web site and amazingly easy to use and understand with just a modicum of intelligence.
One other thing that would have helped, had you possessed some basic reading comprehension is that I used the colored map just for you, to point out where the two zones in question are in relation to each other. Had I wanted to reference success ratios I would have noted that. What you will find in your quest to understand the subject matter is that maps contain a plethora of information which will have different levels of relevancy according to the question at hand. I hold out little hope in your case however. Probably you should not try to hunt here. You and Rex would just end up roommates.
Dear Disgusting….. have your goat back… I don’t want it!!!
“Is that all ya got. pointing out a typo.”
AND IT’S A BIG ONE. WRONG PAGE, WRONG REFERENCE, WRONG MAP, WRONG EVERYTHING.
One thing that would have helped you is you understand ENGLISH. You and the writer of the brochure.
Go back to my original reference and find what we’re talking about.
In others words, YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOD SEND TO ANY TRIAL THAT WOULD ENSUE. You’re clueless. You’d end up charged with false arrest.
The map is for 2009 and lists number of Elk taken and it lists Elk as being taken in the area under question. In other words you provided a defense for Mr. Rammell. Earth to JEFF E. Now, where is the map for what is open on 2010 (that is the date now, in case that salient fact has escaped you). The references and the notes and the color coding in the brochure leads to the belief the area is open, where does it say, it’s closed CAVEMAN. If you make a make color coding it white and list it as ELK hunting areas then you better mark the mark which are ones ARE NOT ELK HUNTING AREAS or someone reading the map will make a wrong conclusion. DUH. Do you work for the people I think you do? Uh, this white is closed and this white is open. Better put a lawyer on retainer you’re going to need one and over and over and over and over.
You used the word expeired, when you meant to say expired but the term you should have used is “not valid”. The tag wasn’t expired, dodo.Bigger than just a typo. At that point you should have hit the off button on your computer and saved yourself the embarassment. What don’t you understand about what I’m saying? Where does it say this area is CLOSED. It may be there but it’s buried and beyond hard to find if you’re any indication. You’d make the same alleged mistake Mr. Rammell did.
jack inhoff=Buncha BS=JEFF E all clueless and contributing nothing to the post. Yes, I know you don’t like Mr. Rammell but that’s not illegal although given your posts it should be.
http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/ifwis/huntplanner/huntplanner.aspx
I went to the above site (do a search for hunt planner, as there is no link on the page, top right search engine) and entered the parameters of my elk hunt and it sent me to this page for answers.
Under the following:
Elk Seasons
General A Tag
Tex Creek
10/22/10-11/30/10 Antlerless Elk Any Weapon Tex Creek Zone³ (note the barely legible sub script 3)
General B Tag
Tex Creek
10/15/10-10/21/10 Antlered Elk Any Weapon Tex Creek Zone³ (same note)
Web page does not contain any notes. So I clicked on the (red html link) and it took me to ******/ifwis/huntplanner/hunt.aspx?ID=24990
(****** is the same website as above, I’m doing it this way in an effort to not end up in moderation, whatever that is) I’m still wondering what the subscript 3 means, looking at properties and sources it’s the page it took me to and there is no corresponding 3 on that page. For those of you who don’t know how to find properties here it is: ******/ifwis/huntplanner/hunt.aspx?ID=24990
Looking over the page it’s a small map and harvest statistics and information as to obtaining a license. Nothing found saying the area is closed to elk hunting, indeed at this point it says “COME ON IN”. Did a ‘search’ on the word CLOSED 7 similiar and nothing hit.
So at this point do you think I should “Submit Your Ideas” as suggested at the bottom? I just went through their hunt planner (the official one no less) and it appears I can hunt elk in area 66,69 as of this date per them. What did I miss? Where does it say this area is CLOSED?
Either give me ANSWERS BS or stay off. You either have a working brain or you don’t.
So, unpopular as the man may be, does he have a legitimate gripe or doesn’t he?
JEFF E, I wouldn’t make remarks about ‘reading comprehension” and then look the fool you did. Same remark back to you.
7 = &
I’m following the directions given on Page 1-3 of the OFFICIAL on line “2010 Big Game Season & Rules.”
The full brochure won’t come down this morning. Wonder why, you can bring down individual pages OK, just not the whole thing for reasons unknown? Maps on pg 80-81 won’t come down this morning either. So, I don’t know whether I might find an answer there either. I accessed those pages that would download for the answer I came up with.
Okay I can see pursuing the map thing is a dead end as obviously the information is more than you are capable of comprehending; so lets try the written word.
From the first paragraph of the elk regs which I have already posted but you did not understand.
“Elk hunting in Idaho is managed in 29 elk zones. In addition,
Fish and Game has established a 2-tag system as an effort to
offer elk hunters the most general season choices. Hunters
may select 1 zone and choose either an “A tag” or a “B tag”
in most elk zones.”
and then “Detailed big game hunting rules and restrictions where we find this statement”It is the
hunter’s responsibility to know season opening and
closing dates, what species and sex may be taken and
hunt boundaries.”, with another supporting paragraph later which states, “Exchange of Deer or Elk Tags: Hunters may exchange
general season elk tags for use in another zone at any Fish
and Game office.”
I realize that is quite a bit of information for you to digest but you can take some comfort in the fact that I am not expecting any miracles.
As for the typo, yes ((expired)) is the proper term as the tag he had was for another zone in which the hunting season had closed a ~ month earlier. Essentially he had no tag for November 2010. valid or otherwise.
And not to beat a dead horse, F&G probably does not figure to pander to the lowest common denominator but as with anything there are exceptions to the rule. So with that and you in mind;
http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/hunt/maps/unitzone.cfm
In closing I now realize that I had placed too high of an expectation of comprehension on you and I apologise. I am sure that it something you run into quite often and it must be frustrating and embarrassing for you. If I can help in any way please let me know.
Being of the suspicious type, is someone busily correcting some pages and maps? Time will tell.
JEFF E,
Your link is to ELK MANAGEMENT zones and the colors differentiate zone boundaries. And that proves?
Where is the map saying it is closed? Even the website planners says it’s open, ie. not closed if you have to be nit picking.
If you can’t get it straight, no one can. You keep answering questions I’m not asking. You should run for the legislature you could write a law no one could enforce.
WHERE IS THE MAP SAYING IT’S CLOSED? AND HOW DO YOU DETERMINE IT’S CLOSED WHEN EVERYTHING ELSE SAYS IT’S OPEN?
The website is way too big and getting worse. It’s beyond confusing. Time to throw it away and start over if you can’t find information you need.
okay, I can see I will have to speak slowly.
Rex Rammell purchased an A tag to hunt elk in the “Middle Fork” zone. That hunt closed on October 31. done. tag expired.(the “B” tag hunt closed on 18 November, therefore entire zone is closed for all elk hunting using general season tags and all such tags have expired.)
Rex was busted in the TEX CREEK zone on 30 November 2010 without a valid tag for THAT ZONE, as the only tag he had was an expired tag for the MIDDLE FORK zone.
Questions?
JEFF E,
One more time.
Where did you get the “A” tag information, it’s not in the article. Click on Edit/ Find on this page:
Oops, first mention was YOU. Where did you get that information? Make it up? Boise Weekly doesn’t mention it, just the fact the officer found it “expired in the wrong zone” The Spokane Review makes a similar remark. KBOI-TV uses the same language. But it’s not expired in the right zone? And what page do you find for the proper tag in the proper place at the proper time, whoa this gets complicated?
The statement he issued said: I should have read the rules closer, all 96 pages of them, but I didn’t. But what really angers me is their “guilty till proven innocent” attitude. I had an “A” tag that was required to hunt in Tex Creek. My greatest crime could only be hunting in the wrong zone.”
I read the same pages, I don’t think I could have figured it out either and the built in hunt planner sent me off in the wrong direction.
Find “middle fork”. Yup, YOU again. I still don’t know where he was hunting but you do.
WHERE DID YOU GET YOUR INFORMATION? It’s not in this article. All of the web sites I’ve produced show no dates other than the one I produced but you know better.
REFERENCES. Your word is not acceptable. Valid and expired don’t refer to the same thing, but you knew that. How many times will you post on here before you start giving information I can check on, and trust me I can’t check on you. You never appear to validate anything. I just have to take your word because, well, you said it…
Larry Laub says:
December 4, 2010 at 8:29 am
While I would agree that the fish & game officers have probably become to aggressive the law is the law. Based on news stories and personal accounts of friends of mine over the years. Other hunters read the proclamation as to not hunt in the wrong area or time frame of the hunt. I do agree he should have his day in court. Poaching has become a huge deal, and no one is above the law. But I might add to bring your Philadelphia lawyer along to interpret the proclamation hand-book.
Idaho Reporter article is half decent but still lacks.
As I previously said and this verifies, no one can figure out the rules and trying to figure out 96 pages of confusing words and a website that sends you the wrong place, I’m amazed any hunter doesn’t end up afoul of the law, albeit a very vocal one. If nothing else he gets changes so people can not end up violating a law they don’t know who, what, where about.
My advice stays. Don’t go hunting, you could be guilty of almost anything. You may have a tag but then you have to worry about being in the wrong zone of the right Tex Creek and since dates are not the same you could be the wrong date. I’m amazed Elk ever are taken given the confusing rules and things to follow. Leave them for the wolves, they don’t have to buy a tag I understand.
Have you memorized all 2700+ pages of the new health care law? You better, when you turn 65 it will send you a huge bill and you have to pay, doesn’t make any difference if you already have a health insurance, no choice.
Ignorance of the law is not excuse, actually it a very good and valid reason.
You’ll probably be walking down a ‘maintenance’ road in Pocatello and find yourself on private property sometime soon. The rules are too complex in this world. I’m amazed at how no one has the same idea of what is contained in something any more. No, it’s beyond amazing. Nobody has the same idea of what is in things any more.
So, correct the website, fix the darned maps and make the thing shorter and no links to things that don’t connect. Still can’t get into the maps on the website, it won’t down load. Somebody fixing the maps? Good.
Now, JEFF E ignore everything I’ve written, don’t check a single link or reference I post. No, just keep inputting the same answers to questions I’m not asking. That accomplishes a lot. Speaking slowly make you sound stupid. I can’t hear you, but you knew that.
Try ifish.net and read about some of their adventures in hunting elk in Idaho and Mr. Rammell is not so alone as you think he is. Made me wonder if some even knew where they were, let alone any other question. Some of the other blogs are a hoot. People asking if anyone knows anything.
YonderWyoFileWILD BILL
Rex Rammell Could Be a Hero
By Bill Schneider, 10-10-06
They say you should address the issue, not the person. But in this case, I’m going to make an exception because like most people, I like to give credit where credit is due, to honor somebody who has done something not many people have been able to do.
Which brings me to Dr. Rex Rammell, the now-notorious owner of a game farm near the west edge of Yellowstone National Park–you know, the one with a big hole its fence….
…As for Dr. Rex Rammell, let’s take a realistic look at what he has inadvertently done.
In Comments on vaiorus …..articles and in many emails I’ve received off-site, people have been full of anger towards him, using some descriptive language which wouldn’t pass the libel test if I repeated it here.
Well, to all his critics I admit that I’ve never met Dr. Rex Rammell, but I’m not angry with him. Instead, I wonder if we shouldn’t be thanking him for what he did.
First off, the controversey is not about him. It’s about preserving our wild elk herds and the sport of elk hunting as we know it today. And in the war for this worthy cause, Rammell emerges as a hero. Without him, we would not have the opportunity we now have to correct decades of apathy and political weakness. If the people of Idaho, either though the legislate or ballot iniative process, step up and do the right thing, the Idaho Sportsman’s Caucus should consider putting up a memorial down by Rexbury honor the man who helped save elk hunting in Idaho.
From newwest.net Bill Scheider.
So, can we agree he’s a good shill to get some people off their duffs and do something. Hint: get the website and brochure revised and now. Give him his day in court and stops trying him in the press which you seem to enjoy immensely but it actually accomplishes nothing. Seems he could claim he couldn’t get a fair trail and have ample evidence for such.
OH MY GAWD DISGUSTING!!! PLEASE TAKE YOUR MEDS BEFORE YOU FALL OFF YOUR KEYBOARD!!!
DR
I’ve heard of people going to any lengths to try and prove a point. I think it was the smell
of blood that got you on the track. And it went on for hours.
I think surrender came from pure attrition.
I can’t lead you around by the nose all day. Go ahead and wallow in your ignorance. Not sure what point you are trying to prove but it is obviously so obsure that only you get it.
JEFF E,
The point is anyone could make the same identical mistake. Unfortunatley a politically hot potato made it. You never once answered the question, did you? And you want to lead? Get out of the way or get run over. You’d never work in my computer center, ever, too dense. The students would eat you alive.
I told you you’re on the wrong page and it doesn’t land. You do know which end of the gun is which, don’t you? Regs are easy to understand but you can’t give a reference to support anything. Must be a simplistic world you live in.
Obsure=Absurd or Obscure, I presume. And you’re churlish.
Ranger,
You’re right about the blood. These people have no clue. Oh, the maps finally popped up with a note about colors, hmmmm! Wonder what else they’re going to change?
Buncha BS,
Yawn! Try lower case, you’re shouting. There’s no med for that. Good rap on the knuckles probably won’t help either.
As I said I can’t lead you around by the nose all day. At this point the only thing I can suggest is some adult education classes teaching reading for comprehension with a good dose of training in critical thinking exercises. Apparently the one thing you ARE adept at is finding typos. Oh well, whatever blows your skirt up.
Texas-what is so confusing in this for you? Rammell purchases an “A” tag, not to be confused with a “B” tag. Still with us…two types of tags, not 3, 4, or 5, just two, either (catch this as there is going to be a test at the end) an A tag or (catch that, not both, must pick one or the other) or “B” tag.This A tag was valid only in the Middle Fork Zone. The operative word in that sentence is ONLY, as in the Middle Fork Zone. Hunt legally ends October 31st which means the hunt is over and your ability to use that tag and harvest an elk in that zone ended at dusk on October 31st (Do we need to take a break here to catch up?) Rammell leaves area, drives to another area referred to Tex Creek Zone (not to be semantically, phonetically, or geographically confused with the similar sounding Middle Fork Zone) and shoots and kills a cow elk (female absent of antlers) on November 30th. Tag is listed for the Middle Fork Zone and is valid through October 31st (as in your local liquor store closing at 10pm but it’s 2am and you pry the door open because you have a valid $20 bill in your pocket and the store has what you are “hunting” for). Law enforcement shows up and explains that your tag is expired and in addition is only valid in another unit. You become confused and belligerent and just can’t grasp your error (Just like you Texas, just too vague and nebulous of a concept for you to get your head around. Now here is the test Texas…..did Rex have a valid elk tag where he harvested the elk Y/N? Was the tag expired Y/N? Did the guy breaking into the store with a valid $20 bill do wrong, and if so, can you explain why?
Dear Disgusting, I’d like to see you try rapping me on the knuckles…. without getting your teeth knocked out… Love you too Dude…;)
Buncha BS,
So the title of the article is “guilty until proven innocent” and you done an admirable job of proving just that.
You forget I get even. You’d never know in what form the knuckle rapping would come but it would come, I’m persistent.
In case, you haven’t figured it out yet, I’ve been baiting you and it worked very well. Mr. Rammell is guilty and you have provided evidence beaucoup that you’d do the same dumb thing in his place. I provide example and link and you provide verbige worthy of a kindergartener having a bad day. Thanks for all the help, couldn’t have done it without you. It’s called shilling with Mr. Rammell as the shill. Somethings needs to be changed and updated and you and yours are clueless but as you demonstrate so amply, you can be used.
And you’re churlish. |:)
Bill M.,
Why would someone buy a tag for Middle Fork (middle of Idaho, Salmon River country) and then go hunting in Tex Creek which is roughly guessing 200 miles away to the SE, give or take some miles? That doesn’t make any sense.
I tried repeatedly to get a picture of an Idaho tag to see what I’m talking about and nothing came up so I don’t know whether just looking at a tag would clue you in or not. The tags here in Texas require a manual to decipher. Yours the same?
I’m not arguing A vs B, I’m just asking where that info came from? I read 4 articles and couldn’t find it in any of them. But you’re sure. Chapter and verse?
I also read a number of hunting blogs for the area and it was amusing the number of people who were confused by things, like what did I buy, where can I hunt even after most said they had the brochure and couldn’t figure it out.
So, I went to the website and took the hunting planner to see what it would send me given the information I had in the articles and guess what it said I could go to Tex Creek during the time period. So it was open for hunting for the “tag was valid” whatever that means. One person says it was out of date and you say it was A not B or vice versa. Now for someone to buy a tag in Idaho Falls and go hunting in Tex Creek and not know the difference? Given what I know of the geography up there it seems beyond odd to buy a Middle Creek tag. That’s rugged country, Tex Creek is the more logical place to go hunt for the individual.
My points stand, don’t try to figure out the brochure or the website or you’ll be in the same predicament Mr. Rammell is. Out of state hunters stay home, Idaho is a dangerous place to hunt and hope to get it right. Oh, yes and don’t ask those selling you the tags whether it’s the right one or not, you have to know or the warden will set you straight. You bought the wrong thing, your fault. Lots of things can go wrong before ever fire up the car or truck to take you hunting.
Fish & Game. Update your website, make it more user friendly and don’t send me to page after page of tables I’m susposed to interpret. Don’t put sub-script characters (notes?) in that send you nowhere and answer nothing. Re-do your brochure for the same reasoning.
You say you have a problem with poaching, I’ll lay odds it’s not poaching, it’s people who are in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong whatever and they got an animal and now find themselves in deep trouble a majority of the time.
Too bad it was Rex Rammell, any other name would never have gotten in the newspaper, would it? You do love to crucify political hot potatoes. He now has a valid argument for not being able to get a fair trial doesn’t he?
So, whether he’s guilty or not, I can’t say but given the fact you send question after question back in reply to my questions and never answers them, I feel for him. I remember people who answer questions with questions. They all have the same genealogy lines. And no, not in my genealogy line.
So from a distant Texas.
No answers from Idaho only questions that apparently you can’t reference the page number and such from either, but I have to take your word for it.
No, I don’t want to come hunting. Too many things can go wrong and then you have all these people with the right answers who were nowhere in sight just moments before. Sounds like a mad house. Isn’t government wonderful, they get us arguing with ourselves.
Are you droning on again Disgusting? Don’t get your panties in a bunch just because I baited you and made you rant on & on & on, bringing out the foolish old man that you are.. oh yeah and THEN you say you baited me…. that’s actually amusingly priceless!
No, I shilled you, big difference. I made one reference to baiting and you grabbed it and ran. Hint Find:
I live to make life miserable for you. It’s fun.
So, you don’t have any answers either? Nobody has yet answered a single question, you included, just threw out the libelous taunts. Whoop-ti-doo. So Rex Rammell is Idaho’s Sarah Palin? Looks like it. Still trade you for Lloyd Doggett. He’d drive you beyond nuts. He runs from open forums here, seems people are after him. Guilty of public displeasure, wow!
A cowboy died and went to heaven. When he arrived at the pearly gates, he was met by a frowning Saint Peter. The cowboy, remembering more than a few earthy indiscretions, feared for the worst. But Saint Peter neither turned him away nor beckoned him in. After a few tense moments, the cowboy summoned all his courage and asked the obvious question, “Saint Peter, what’s the matter?” The old saint opened his palms apologetically and said, “You can come in, but it won’t be like Texas.”
There’s a story told of a young boy who was chastised by his father for asking a stranger if he was from the Lone Star State. The father warned his son, “Never ask a man if he’s from Texas. If he is, he’ll tell you. If he’s not, why embarass him?”
I may have been born in Lousiana, but I’ll be a Texan till the day I die. Attributed to Van Cliburn.
So buy a cowboy hat and boots. Then you’re on your way to being a Texan. Attributed to James Michener.
What Texans can dream, Texans can do. Attributed to Mr. George W. Bush. He should know.
Never pass up an opportunity to do an honorable favor for an honest friend. Attributed to LBJ.
You can’t get ahead while you’re trying to get even. Attributed to Dick Armey.
Nobody is perfect. Look for the good in others. Forget the rest. Attributed to Barbara Bush.
If we must disagree, let’s disagree without being disagreeable. Attributed to LBJ.
In seeking truth you have to get both sides of a story. Attributed to Walter Cronkite
Hospitality in the prairie country is not limited. Even if your enemy passes your way, you must feed him before you shoot him. Attributed to O Henry.
Your turn BS.
Anybody that defends the Fish and Game regs also defends the IRS manual.
I do however understand the elk units boundaries only because I so hate the idea of picking a unit. Why? All I hear is hunting numbers are down in the state and they want to make you pick where you can hunt? They want youth to take up hunting and then make it difficult on the one’s that do show interest. Make it fun and people will take up hunting.
Idaho needs to fire the comission and start fresh with new ideas. Lets start with writing a manual that is easily understandable.
Keith,
Thank you sir.
Speaking of the IRS manual it’s now marked “interim” and is finally down to a 55 page pdf. A quick reading indicates it’s still not written in English, FAR, DTAR, ISAP, IRSAP, SPE, etc.
Keith –
Like all other aspects of game management in Idaho, the “pick your unit” requirement is 100% dollar-driven.
The objective is the limitation of resident hunting opportunity in favor of non-residents. The non-resident hunters are nearly all involved with outfitters, and they have no desire to hunt anyplace other than within their outfitter’s area. Because the non-residents are the major source of revenue for the F&G Dept., they hate to do anything to alienate them, but they don’t mind in the slightest about reducing opportunity for the residents.
You can always decipher any of the new regulations the department comes up with by simply following the money.