Journal editorial: Idaho schools don’t need money, right?
Fortunately, funding for schools is not the most important factor in education, according to a spokesperson for the State Department of Education.
Good to know. Otherwise, some parents and other adults in Idaho could worry about the state’s dismal ranking in what it spends per pupil. The U.S. Census Bureau found that Idaho ranked next to last among states in what it spends per pupil — second worst ahead only of Utah according to numbers from the 2009-2010 school year.
Yet Melissa McGrath, speaking for the state, says Idaho kids continually outperform students across the United States in reading, math and science. “It’s clear that Idaho is doing well spending its resources effectively and efficiently to benefit Idaho students.”
That must mean that Idaho schools are doing a good job, despite having to scrimp and rely on local property taxes to keep the school doors open. Any school superintendent will tell you that’s not easy, and schools are having to cut corners via such means as going to four-day weeks and devising hefty student fees for numerous activities.
But Mike Ferguson, Idaho’s former chief state economist who served under five Idaho governors until he retired to head the Idaho Center for Fiscal Policy, takes issue with McGrath.
“The fact is that we’ve been essentially disinvesting in children,” Ferguson says, noting that Idaho has low personal-income compared to other states to begin with. “We’ve always been on the low end of the scale in per-pupil spending. It’s just that we’re basically, in these relative terms, getting even worse compared to what we have been able to muster previously.”
McGrath, who serves under State Superintendent of Public Instruction Tom Luna, acknowledges that school districts are struggling since federal stimulus funding ended. But fortunately, “money is not the factor that determines the quality of an education system.”
Maybe so, but it sure helps. Otherwise, why would we cough up those extra dollars in supplemental levies every two years?
The industrialized states have large incomes, large-per-pupil expenditures, and bad outcomes. Some of the rural, agricultural states (at least UT and ID), have small incomes, small per-student expenditures, and pretty good outcomes.
Which of those two scenarios would most people find preferable?
The balanced budget down here means education took a big hit when $27 billion wasn’t there. So did things get worse, no actually they got better, seems money wasn’t the answer to as many things as people thought? The Robin Hood law that took from property rich districts and gave to property poor districts was looked at and trips to Disneyland were discontinued as not being something that improved test scores in the poor districts.
One year later scores have gone up and students have gotten a clue that it’s wiser to get good grades. And yes we closed a bunch of schools and bused the losers to other schools where they now drag those schools down.
I remember growing up in a basement school room with 4 rows of seats, 6 grades. 6th grade helped the 5th grade, 5th grade helped the 4th grade and so on down. Oh, yes there was always someone to fill the “dunce” cap. That never went away and yes it did work very well to get their attention on where it belonged. Not PC today however. Coal stoker stove in the corner that never quite took the chill off the air in the winter. Those near it baked, those on the other side of the room kept their heavy coats on all day long. Air conditioning was recess outside all year long.
We spend more down here and Idaho makes us look stupid. No, money is not what makes the difference, actually parents are and we got a bunch of loser parents here. Money can’t buy a parent where none exists, just a biological dork who cares only for themselves and not the children that comes to them. Parent never learned growing why should the children be any different? But that makes me a racist and a republican for having noticed it? Nope, neither.
No extra curricular activities, most of time bats were homemade at best and balls more lopsided than round but we had fun. Oh, no computers but a bunch of us went into computers for a living. No social sites, just long conversations with friends, face to face and not on facebook.
I still remember my teacher, she was the most important thing in that school. She cried when the 6th grade graduated upstairs at the end of the year. We felt cared about and for, meant a lot. Nowadays you’re a number that absorbs x amount of $$$, not good.
Money doesn’t buy quality, it’s not a commodity that can be bought.
Luna is advising Romney. Thats a good one.
NRF,
Meant to ask you:
Obama’s promises:
“I promise NO NEW TAXES on a family making less than $250K a year.”
“I promise 100% transparency in my administration.”
“I will allow 5 days of public comment before I sign any bills.”
“I will remove earmarks from PORK projects before I sign any bill.”
“I will end Income Tax for seniors making less than $50K a year.”
“I will bring ALL of our troops home within ONE year.”
“I’ll put the Health Care negotiations on CSPAN so everyone can see who is at the table!”
“I’ll have no lobbyists in my administration.”
“I’ll close Guantanamo.”
“I’ll resign if I don’t cut the deficit in half by the end of four years.”
“I’ll unite the people of this great country.”
What else is he going to promise to do that we can PLAN ON? Those are the better ones. How do you plan on things when all he says never comes true except in the opposite at best?
Better than Holder advising him.
So its Obamas fault Romney has no plan? Another good one.
Perhaps Romney needs to worry about the big donors that are resigning their posts today more than his plans. He has alot on his plate doesnt he.
NRF,
Did you hear the prez’s call about donors. He hasn’t had too many on his plate this time, does he? But he can be bought? Right? Get your overpriced t-shirt.
And yes, it’s Obama’s fault, only fair.
Don’t need a plan when your opponent provides all the wrong things to get him re-elected. The voters in this country would be beyond foolish to go for 4 more. Looking like another downgrade for the treasuries among others. Two in one term, wow, never happened before. Welcome to Greece? But Romney’s fault because…..??? Noticed Obama went to Camp David instead of Martha’s Vineyard after taking it on the nose for the lapse last time.
A billion dollars to elect a president who then borrows about $5-6 trillion more to do what? Slap us with a healthcare tax that isn’t a tax? And a big one too. Glad you can afford him, I can’t. How do you plan for somebody who doesn’t know what they’re doing or where anybody is going. Yup, Obamas fault, you got that right.
Ah, yes Mr. Robert Diamond, a now disgraced LONDON banker won’t be on the dias. But George Clooney will be in the background somewhere begging for Obama? Anymore that google missed? http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-06-20/obama-spends-more-than-he-raises-as-aides-see-romney-advantage You missed these? How gauche of you?
Ah yes, Obama camnpaign TARGETS Romney donors? Executive privilege or Fast & Furious? Yes indeed Obama needs to worry, this is the stuff of impeachment and no Watergate in this one is there?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougschoen/2012/05/14/the-obama-white-house-enemies-list/
The Obama campaign is now marshaling the power of the office of the presidency against private citizens — using the Obama campaign’s “Truth Team” to target individual Romney donors and supporters in a way that is alarmingly reminiscent of Richard Nixon’s “Enemies List” — as documented in a May 10th piece by the Wall Street Journal’s Kimberly Strassel.
And you worry about Romney? Guess someone has to. Go for it.
There’s more but C.R. Stucki is counting words again.
We ought to be totally embarassed in Idaho that we think so little of our future generation to properly fund their education. Instead, the GOP touts this as some kind of badge of honor. I have taught public school for 21 years in two different states. I can tell you with absolute certainty that money does make a difference. Larger class sizes do make a difference. Not having text books does make a difference. I will agree that the number one indicator of success in school is the parents, but to say funding makes no difference is naive at best.
Mom -
I doubt that anybody IS saying funding makes no difference, but if funding had the capacity to solve all the problems of public education, they would have been solved long ago.
Funding has grown by multiples just in the last generation or two, but no problems have been solved, and outcomes have deteriorated. And I do NOT blame the teachers. Our schools are a direct reflection of our society, and as the family unit has disintegrated within our society, the schools have followed suit.
Mom, (from a Dad of 3 boys)
Funding should make a difference but after decades of throwing money in odd places and no returns on the same, money hasn’t solved the problems and now money is short.
I don’t blame teachers either and like C.R. Stucki notes that “school are a direct reflection of our society” as he states.
Lots of things need to change and money unfortunately won’t touch them, sorry to say.
Schools down here are worse than in Idaho and we’ve thrown huge sums at them over the years.
We passed a “robin hood” law down here that took money from property rich districts and gave to property poor districts and the only difference was the poor districts sent their students to Disneyland and the test scores got worse. Money wasn’t the solution. Neither was Disneyland.
I agree with you “the number one indicator of success in school is the parents”. Too many parents by and large get an “F” down here and no smiley face. You do amazing well with the money you have in Idaho, the school districts down here could learn from you.
Sitting here thinking about what has been tried over the years here.
We bussed students to other schools and the students grades got worse. Some children spent 3 hours every day on a bus to failure from failure.
We bought their books and they lost them in droves.
We bought them computers and they surfed for porn or worse got addicted to video games that taught them to kill.
We closed schools and put them on buses to other schools and they drug the test scores of their new schools down with them.
We gave more money to property rich districts and they were delighted with the money and spent it on some crazy things and scores got worse.
We tutored the children on our own time and dime and still they failed. It was somewhat helpful but never overcame the initial problems they went ‘to lack of home’ to every day.
Ran into more than one student who believed that if you got too good of grades that made you look white. Failure was success in their personal world as sad as that sounds.
Try to get parents to come to school or take part and you found most of the failing students lacked the requisite pair. Lots of “live in” girl friends/boy friends who didn’t care about them. Their biological father complained about not having a father growing up but his own had none either as he wasn’t one and was never there for them. Mothers didn’t fare much better. But we provided Sec. 8 housing, food stamps, WIC and such and things got worse. We destroyed whatever sense of responsbility they might have had and replaced it with, this is the way it’s always going to be. Generation after generation, the same way. But blame it on republicans and that solves what? Same thing busses did, nothing.
Somethings are beyond the reach of anything, let alone money to fix. Money tends to make things worse.
Sad as it seems, adversity bring us together and money destroys us. So yes, we’re naive something horrible and money won’t fix our naivety.
How much longer are we going to pursue this path that is taking us nowhere good?
Is money really the universal panacea for all our educational ills? From this site: http://247wallst.com/2011/05/31/the-states-that-spend-the-most-and-least-on-each-student/3/
New York spends more than $18,100 per student on education each year, more than any other state in the country. To put this in perspective, the state’s budget includes approximately $12,500 per pupil spent on teacher salaries and benefits. This amount alone is more than the entire education budgets per student of all but a handful of states. Despite this massive amount of funding, the state is an abysmal 31st in the country in both math and reading scores, and the graduation rate of 76.3% is the 12th lowest in the country. According to MSNBC, in response to the release of these statistics, Gov.Andrew Cuomo stated that New York’s system would need to be evaluated, and that a powerful teacher evaluation system was needed. He said: “Only in government do you spend money regardless of results. In the real world, you buy something, you spend money, you expect something in return…”
Utah spends the lowest amount on each student of any state in the nation, and is the only state to spend less than $7,000 per student, compared to a national average of $10,498. The amount spent, however, is an increase of 10.3% from the year before. The public education budget was also increased by 2% this year, according to Utah’s Daily Herald. Although math and reading scores in the state are around average, they are both better than scores in New York, a state that spends almost three times as much per pupil as Utah does. Furthermore, 21% of public schools in Utah failed to meet the goals set forth by the federal No Child Left Behind Act. In New York, this number is 38%.
So, there you have the mostest and the leastest. It’s a very interesting site. A little more data since Idaho is in question:
Despite the small amount Idaho spends on education per pupil, its schools perform well. Its graduation rate is the 13th highest in the nation, 7% higher than New York, the state that spends the most. Idaho also has the 16th highest math scores.
More impressive than the graduation stats are the math, reading, etc. scores since those stats are taken from standardized testing. Graduation stats may or may not indicate excellence.
My class sizes (in Idaho) increased by an average of 4 students this year because of teachers who were not replaced due to lack of funding. My school did not make AYP (adequate yearly progress) this year for the first time in a long time. I don’t think it is a coincidence that as classes get larger, test scores fall. If the scores are holding relatively steady right now (which I personally question), they are certain to start falling as the true effects of Students Come First become evident. The numbers look like I will have an average of three more students per class this coming year. Are we not going to be happy until every Math and English class has 100 students? After all, money doesn’t matter.
Mom,
You didn’t say what number of students that represents so I’m guessing on my reply.
My elementary teacher in Idaho had 4 rows of 8 students each in one room for a total of, if memory servers me 32 students. 6 grades in one room. Another room across the half with the same ratios and numbers.
There was no AYP or STAR (down here). So it might be hard to compare, but we all got along. Asaphidity bags (herbal cures) were all the rage and those coming with them got the back corner for the day.
http://www.salon.com/2011/08/06/good_school_excerpt/
“But you may be surprised to learn that the effects of class size on learning are not 100 percent clear. Conventional wisdom tell us that smaller class size is crucial for learning — that kids of all ages learn more in smaller groups. And indeed, in the early years of schooling, there is some research to back this up.
But there is a substantial body of research to suggest that kids in small classes don’t necessarily learn more. In the range of things that schools can do to improve outcomes for your child, reducing class size may rank a distant fourth behind solid teacher training, a clear and well-sequenced curriculum, and a staff that is well supported and regularly evaluated…..”
I suspect the subject won’t be retired any time soon.
We have something down here called “Head Start” which has the announced attention of being a head start for a certain portion of the population. Unfortunately it has gained the cynical name of “get up to speed” and most students in its grasp seldom do due to lacks in other things in their lives. They start school behind and tend to stay there, irregardless of class size.
I feel sorry for you that your class size is growing and probably will continue to do so. As we stated previously we don’t blame teachers but moreso the society we have and other things which make your jobs all the harder.
I remember when I first started college I was in several classes that had well over 100 students in them, you either got it on your own or you didn’t. Money didn’t matter, built-in drive mattered much more. The instructor simply lectured and we either knew it or we didn’t. Life was a bit like that, OJT (on the job training) was either a big part or you went nowhere.
Idaho is doing well, come down here and see what real failure is like and some of the reasons of which money was a distant reason.
You don’t become a teacher to get rich, got that right. Got a grandson who became one and he makes half of what I did at the same time. He’s good but his salary doesn’t match his abilities. He has a degree, I never did. Life is not fair, is it?
Perhaps this is why the highest food stamps usage states are Republican red.
Lower IQ’s equal lower wages, equal higher profits!!
It is by design, the Republican plan, it’s called the race to the bottom.
The only thing the wealthy want your kids to know is how to say; “Welcome to Walmart”.
Middle class cutting their own throats, and you thought it was about abortion and gay rights!! Nope.
Don’t waste you time Texas teatard, I don’t read your crap.
Alan,
You can read? Couldn’t prove it by me. Glad you don’t read it. Then you won’t have anything to post against?
Food stamps follow the abusers and they’re not republican are they? Go into the food stamp place here and listen to non-english being spoken from everyone.
Lower IQ does equal lower wages, that’s been true for a long time. However, it doesn’t equate to higher profits, not even close. We’ve got a huge bunch of lower IQ mechanics down here that are basically part changers and having them work on something is beyond expensive and the employer has to warranty their work, which cuts into profits something horrible.
We call it LCD, lowest common denominator and it seems to follow the democrats something horrible.
There are very few wealthy any more, everyone is suffering. Those saying “Welcome to Walmart” are senior citizens who find they can’t retire ever. Kids jobs are being held by adults who find it’s all they can get.
Obama says it’s about abortion and gay rights, everyone else is telling him, It’s about the economy, stupid.
Food stamps in republican (RED) states are because that where the jobs are, DUH. But those on food stamps don’t have qualifications to hold the jobs available. How do you translate C++ into another language for a start?
Love you too, dude.
Alan,
I was hoping for some intelligent give and take when I mistakenly encouraged you some time back. You’ve been a big disappointment ever since, oh boy have you.
I’ve tied into a loser liberal democrat with an IQ in the minus quantities at best who has no clue as to how clueless he is.
You have a mind, turn it on and use it sometime. Otherwise it’s a hat rack for a gimme cap.
Subject is Idaho schools don’t need money.
There are a lot of things that are right about education in Idaho. But I fear that Idaho is heading in the wrong direction. We have never been near the top in education spending but I don’t believe we have ever been this close to the bottom either. I think the saying “you get what you pay for” applies here. We can spend the money now on education or we can spend much more later on for prisons and welfare. Anyone who says that class size doesn’t matter has about as much educational experience as our Superintendent Luna.
Hope you’re right Mom.
I enjoyed a big class with the age group I grew up with. Never asked my teacher her version. She cried every year when another few went upstairs to Junior High.
My teachers never cried much. They’re not as sentimental in reform school!
Mom -
No rural, predominantly agricultural state is normally ever going to be “near the top” on per-pupil education expenditure. That’s where you find the states with either lots of industry, or mineral wealth.
But those things, especially the industry, bring their own sets of problems that perhaps explain the disconnect between high per-pupil spending and successful outcomes.
[...] fbShare = { size: 'small', } Idaho State Journal editorial: Fortunately, funding for schools is not the most important factor i…, according to a spokesperson for the State Department of [...]
I didn’t say why she cried, sir. There are both tears of joy and anguish. Need to bring back reform school, it did reform a few.
What concerns me is not that Idaho isn’t near the top in funding. It’s the direction we’re heading and the fact that we seem proud of it. I think the effects will be showing up in a few years in lower scores and students even less prepared for college. Graduation rates will remain steady because of “alternative schools” that pretty much hand anyone a diploma.